some thoughts on Martha

[intrikate88]

I just read someone's thoughts on how Rose's character development epically failed in s2, where phrases such as 'she had no will or ambition of her own' and 'I resent that she isn't Martha' were used, and abstained from responding (other than mentally), "I'm sorry, but that does not in fact resemble canon, even if you imagine really hard, and thus I respect your imagination very much."

And while I somewhat oppose the exclusionary and stereotyping idea of thinking in binaries, my mind still naturally turned to Martha. "How do I think of Martha's character in a way that does not resemble canon and thus stretch my imagination to faraway places?" I wondered.

Approximately four months after seeing the end of series three, and very seldom rewatching it in the meantime, what ideas do I hold about Martha? Well, I think she's very cool, and that does not have to preclude Rose's coolness. I think she's smart, pretty, and loyal, and I really didn't mean to make her sound like a cocker spaniel with those descriptors. I don't think that the writers allowed her to shine through as much as they might have, but to do so might have taken away from the story arc they had wtih the Doctor and the aftermath of losing Rose (whose loss could be a parallel to the off-screen loss of Gallifrey, and the following PTSD.)

What I think I'm going to do is watch series three again, in order, now that I know what the arcs are and what's happening and why. And then I'll see if my opinion changes, what new things I recognize about Martha's character, how the writing was effective and ineffective, and possibly throw in some literary criticism, just for the hell of it. Anyone care to join me?

ETA: cesario correctly pointed out that it would have been polite to link to her post, as I was responding to it without allowing whoever reads my journal to make up their own mind. So you can find her post here, and anybody who follows it should bear in mind the rules of common courtesy in leaving comments on her journal or mine. K? K.

Comments

[goldy-dollar.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, I think I just had to read that post, and I am so boggled, I don't even really know where to begin. What show did I watch? How can it be that people see things so differently in this fandom? DON'T GET! (Or is it that Rose bashing is the new way to make yourself insta!friends in Who fandom?)

What I think I'm going to do is watch series three again, in order, now that I know what the arcs are and what's happening and why. And then I'll see if my opinion changes, what new things I recognize about Martha's character, how the writing was effective and ineffective, and possibly throw in some literary criticism, just for the hell of it. Anyone care to join me?

Ooh, doooo it! I think I'm at a place with Martha where I mostly just don't want to think about her. Sigh.

[intrikate88.livejournal.com]

If you want to see the post in question, look no further than here (http://cesario.livejournal.com/260617.html).

People do see things so differently in the same show! I don't understand it either. But everybody has different ways of understanding things, different ways that organization makes sense to the brain. And I think that maybe the way Rose's character was developed makes sense to us, just because that's how our brains function, by understanding the sense in that organization. And perhaps others understand the sense of organization in the way Martha's character was developed. Because I think we all can agree that those were different kettles of fish entirely.

... as you can see, I sort of just am over the bitterness in both camps and can't keep up with it anymore.

Frances, I feel like I haven't talked to you in soooo long! I miss you, dear!

[goldy-dollar.livejournal.com]

Heh! I like how you're trying to be all peaceful and understanding about it. I think I kind of snapped. Thankfully, I only freaked out at my paranoid filter. :D :D AND I feel better now, so some ranting is good for the soul. (Also, I'm not sure I'd ever make a 'Rose is better than Martha!' post and leave it public. Or at all, actually. But if I DID, I wouldn't leave it public. I think its mean to bash characters publicly. But I'm weird.)

Frances, I feel like I haven't talked to you in soooo long! I miss you, dear!

I miss you, too!!! There's been quite a few posts you've made recently that I've thought: "Ooh, I should comment!" And then I didn't. Things have been kind of crazy.

[intrikate88.livejournal.com]

Things have been kind of crazy here, too. However, your icon rocks so much, it makes up for all of it.

I like how you're trying to be all peaceful and understanding about it.

Well, it reminded me a bit of a discussion in class the other day- there were two articles we read. Which I'll call A and B. One group said that A was a more effective article, because it had proper organization and development, while B was all over the place. Then another group said, Actually, you must have read different articles, because B had the information divided up into separate categories, whereas A had it all mixed together. Then a third group said, No, actually, the writer of B was just impressed with the aesthetic look of categories but they don't mean much, and A develops the argument by logically building and progressing in an orderly fashion. Then Dr. Gephardt stepped in and said, "Now do you see how hard it is to grade papers? Because none of you are wrong, and you all just see this argument totally differently is all."

So I told them all that A contradicted itself by essentially saying it didn't exist. That was the logical development. :P

See? My fandom skills serve me in real life, sorta!

[goldy-dollar.livejournal.com]

Things have been kind of crazy here, too.

We should ditch RL and meet up somewhere in the middle. I could go for a beer and a hockey game! A WHOLE three HOURS of free time!

However, your icon rocks so much, it makes up for all of it.

hjea! I swear I did not pay her money for it. :D

See? My fandom skills serve me in real life, sorta!

Your fandom skillz impress me! Teach me, young one. :D And I think you're right. We definitely shouldn't get all the same things out of a show.

And you know what? I TOTALLY APPLY MY FANDOM SKILLS TO REAL LIFE, TOO! Being a political science student and all, I have opinions on everything and always assume I'm right and everyone else is wrong. YES!

[cesario.livejournal.com]

That post of mine wasn't actually meant to be SRS BSNS meta where I properly evaluated the thing and gave examples to support my ideas and whatnot. It was just me talking about my feelings. Honestly, sometimes I forget about who_daily linking my every vaguely Who-related post where everyone can read it. Maybe I should stop them doing that.

Anyway, I could give my reasons for why I feel Rose was badly handled, but I suspect you've seen it all before. If it makes you feel any better, I too occasionally have the "just what show is it that you're watching?" reaction when hardcore Rose fans talk about the show from their POV. We inhabit different ends of the continuum, that's all.

I gotta say, though, if you're going to quote from a person's post and respond to it, the polite and rhetorically proper thing to do is link to the post so that your readers can examine the argument you're answering for themselves.

[intrikate88.livejournal.com]

I will definitely post the link right away, if you would prefer, and I apologize for the impression I might have given by not doing so in the first place. The reason I didn't was because I didn't want any hardcore Rosefen to see this post and go attack you- there are enough people out there stirring shit up without me adding to it by inadvertently sending people with unbalanced opinions your way.

We all seem to have the "what show are you watching, again" reaction, it seems! Fans of reader-response criticism, rejoice. :P But that is true, and perhaps if we were to define the show in terms of what we see in it, (which is rather the whole practice of fandom, isn't it?) then we could argue that we are watching different shows. But in any case, different things about how characters are written and developed appeal to us in different ways, and that's Okay! It means we are all unique and come from various backgrounds and it's good. There is no one correct interpretation, after all.

Once again, I apologize if what I said or how I said it was offensive to you, or made you feel attacked; my intention was only to state that I needed to re-evaluate my ideas of Martha's character, and I hope I didn't go about doing so in the wrong way. I also hope it's not the case that, just because we inhabit different regions of fandom, we can't still do friendly things like the metaphorical equivalent of sharing pens and such every now and then. :)

[ohvienna.livejournal.com]

I would definitely do a re-watch, if I hadn't already done so too many times already, heh. But I can say that on my rewatching my opinions definitely went through some changes. This happens with every season of DW, for me, anyway. What's so strange about DW fandom is that people might be making a semblance of sense, and then go and say something completely inflammatory against one or another character that just ruins the whole post. (Haven't read the post you're referring too, though).

now that I know what the arcs are and what's happening and why. And then I'll see if my opinion changes, what new things recognize about Martha's character, how the writing was effective and ineffective, and possibly throw in some literary criticism, just for the hell of it.

Martha love grew exponentially for me as I re-watched the season, knowing her arc and what they writers were trying to do (and also tried to ignore all factions of fandom, because damn if fandom doesn't make everyone see things through prisms and blinders). I'm definitely interested to see what you have to say looking back at the season. :)