cause compare/contrast is what I do best

[intrikate88]

In a thrilling discussion last night thunderemerald and I discussed the need to see how similar River and Echo are. Which, duh, needs to be done. Because when Joss makes two dark-haired graceful crazy girls in his shows, I'm seeing a connection.

First, there's that obvious connection with their mental states. Both girls have had their heads messed around wtih by big somewhat-faceless organizations. The processes leave them blank but damaged on some deep level that comes up violently at unexpected times. Joss writes their identities as a mystery to be discovered. There's also this idea of programmable dolls. River knows she's a doll- "Dress me up like a gorram doll; their hands never touch blood but they're covered in it," she says, and its a story that seems to also apply to Echo.

They also have issues wtih the people around them and their perception of River and Echo's humanity. Jayne once said about River, "She's not all there, but you know? Not all of her needs to be." And then we saw this security dude last episode that went off on Echo for not being a whole person. Clearly Joss is fascinated by this idea of a woman who Isn't All There- there's some part of her that's hidden and waiting to break out. A lot of his female characters have this, whether that be a secret strength or a dark side. It's a concept of Othering, I guess, but it almost feels more respectful than the usual misogynistic ways that's used. It's kind of an interesting sort of women's studies analysis, how each character challenges perceptions and treatments of women. What do y'all think, since you're mostly all a bunch of ladies with some gender studies under your belts?

Comments

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

I don't have any gender studies under the belt, but ya know, you got me thinking AGAIN...

Clearly Joss is fascinated by this idea of a woman who Isn't All There- there's some part of her that's hidden and waiting to break out. A lot of his female characters have this, whether that be a secret strength or a dark side.

...that it's not just River and Echo. River and Echo are what happen when the Powers That Be (usually male, or at least masculine in nature) take too much control and repress the individuality of the woman in question, making her less than herself. Buffy, as we revealed in later seasons, is the opposite side of the same coin: a long line of women who have been "Chosen" to become MORE than themselves, though still not of their own volition. These powers, whoever they are, are almost more insidious, because it's like they're saying, "Look, we love women! We chose one woman in each generation to FIGHT our battles against EVIL because we can't be arsed to do it ourselves!!!1! Aren't we awesome?" But at the root of it, the choice was in the wrong hands.

Until that amazing, epic series finale, where Buffy decided that she was going to be the last of her kind to be the product of someone else's choices. EVERY Potential becomes a Slayer. And with so many Slayers around, if any one of them decides not to fight, then there are many more who still will. And even if all but one decides not to fight... well, one is the same number as before.

<3 Joss <3

[ninamazing.livejournal.com]

YES.

A very lot of YES.

I think in a lot of ways, Joss's female characters show how beaten down women can be by all the restrictions that society puts on them — everything that stands in Buffy's way, or River's way, or Echo's way, comes from a place of misogyny or just plain disrespect for ALL people. And then they break out. And we see what a crime it was to keep them under wraps at all, ever, because they are so frakking amazing it brightens the whole universe by a few degrees.

♥JOSS♥

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

YUP. It's like:

Dear Women Everywhere,

You are better than this. All of you. All you have to do is know yourselves.

Love'n'kisses,
Joss

[intrikate88.livejournal.com]

*AGREES*

And that is one of the major things I love about Joss's shows- how he shows how bright and amazing people are when they stand up and break free from the things that bind them. It makes me love people so much because I want to remember what they are capable of, not just the small petty things that I see that are reactions against repression. Yay for seeing beauty over pain- that's a reason I like Doctor Who, too.

[intrikate88.livejournal.com]

You just made so many good points I am blown away by your pointyness and yes. That is a hugely great analysis of the use of women vs. women's choice theme in Joss's shows and the distinguishing, yet similar, features of being repressed and being chosen- all fascinating. :D

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

I AM POINTY! ::goes off singing "Me and My Arrow"::

[ninamazing.livejournal.com]

Oh, I totally forgot about "Dress me up like a gorram doll"! ♥

Butyeah, this connection is obvious. I forget who told me this (or if it was even Joss! :P ), but someone said Dollhouse was going to be a continuation of the River Tam story. WHICH I THINK IS AWESOME BECAUSE THERE IS SO MUCH MORE STORY THERE.

It's definitely Othering. But it's Othering in a good way. A true way. I like how Joss does it, because somehow, he gets women ... or at least women like me. He keeps a part of them hidden and waiting to break out, and then they do break out and it's magnificent and they don't need some man's help to do it, either.

[intrikate88.livejournal.com]

OOOH. That's so cool that Joss may even be thinking of this as a continuation of River's story. I can definitely see that as kind of another step, another branch- River expelled the demon-knowledge in Serenity, and now there's this blank strong, smart, young woman with so many possibilities. And so many potential dangers.

Othering is such an interesting concept to me... there was a course at school that I really wanted to take about a year ago and couldn't but it was all about Gothic conventions and the Other, which I think I would have learned so much from. Even so, the Other always seems to posit these binaries of either a Noble Savage archetype or a Mysterious Monster one. And the Slayers, River, Echo- they are all strong and noble and simple in their way, as well as mysterious and with a capability for great destruction. But whereas Othering is generally used for slapping on a label and then wandering off, Joss sticks around and keeps unraveling behind the label to see what parts are true and what aren't and what's even more important than that. And I think that on some level we ladies really get that- we don't want to be pedestalized or looked down on then left either, we want to be complete humans that someone takes an interest in. We're going to find it personal, to be able to sympathize with this sort of story.